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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just saw this tonight. First time I've seen a dealership listing an F-150 Lightning for sale with a VIN and Stock #.


There's no pics, and no real info except "Call". I imagine they will add lots of extra $$$$ to this one and try to get some sucker to buy it.
 

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Dealers were doing this with the Mustang Mach E last year. In my Opinion, any dealer that does this is unscrupulous scum and should be avoided if at all possible.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Different link New 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning For Sale at Imperial Ford | VIN: 1FTVW1EL1NWG00754

Dealers were doing this with the Mustang Mach E last year. In my Opinion, any dealer that does this is unscrupulous scum and should be avoided if at all possible.
Yeah, I'm not keen on this dealer (Imperial). They actually have multiple dealerships, pretty much covering all the brands. They are adding $5-10K to almost every new vehicle.

I've no interest in paying anyone more than MSRP and will be sure to no shop dealers adding "market adjustments".

One dealer just over the line in CT was selling a high-end Dodge pickup... was already like $94K, they added another $10K. Some fool actually bought it.
 

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I certainly hope they are scheduling builds and issuing VIN’s. Since this is basically a modified F-150 I’d expect the ramp up on production to be much faster and smoother than the Bronco launch has been (especially hard tops). Maybe the Frunk and it’s components will be the constraint, who knows. As expected on this one:

Rectangle Font Screenshot Software Multimedia
 

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Different link New 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning For Sale at Imperial Ford | VIN: 1FTVW1EL1NWG00754



Yeah, I'm not keen on this dealer (Imperial). They actually have multiple dealerships, pretty much covering all the brands. They are adding $5-10K to almost every new vehicle.

I've no interest in paying anyone more than MSRP and will be sure to no shop dealers adding "market adjustments".

One dealer just over the line in CT was selling a high-end Dodge pickup... was already like $94K, they added another $10K. Some fool actually bought it.
Pretty much every dealership nationwide is adding ADM in the $2,500 to $10,000 range on all new vehicle stock that hits the lot. Good dealers are still selling ordered cars for MSRP or whatever discount was negotiated, bad dealerships are marking up people’s special ordered Broncos by $10-$30K when the truck arrives. I bought my ordered Bronco last month for MSRP, but they are adding $15K onto abandoned orders and selling every truck they receive. My folks bought a 2022 Highlander last month, I was able to negotiate off the $5K ADM. I can’t really blame the dealership for adding something when they only have 4 new cars on a lot that would usually have 300+ for sale. Simple rules of supply and demand suggest that when demand is high and supply is scarce prices go up, many people are willing to pay. Things will normalize when supply matches demand, probably sometime in 2023.
 

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Pretty much every dealership nationwide is adding ADM in the $2,500 to $10,000 range on all new vehicle stock that hits the lot. Good dealers are still selling ordered cars for MSRP or whatever discount was negotiated, bad dealerships are marking up people’s special ordered Broncos by $10-$30K when the truck arrives. I bought my ordered Bronco last month for MSRP, but they are adding $15K onto abandoned orders and selling every truck they receive. My folks bought a 2022 Highlander last month, I was able to negotiate off the $5K ADM. I can’t really blame the dealership for adding something when they only have 4 new cars on a lot that would usually have 300+ for sale. Simple rules of supply and demand suggest that when demand is high and supply is scarce prices go up, many people are willing to pay. Things will normalize when supply matches demand, probably sometime in 2023.
These dealers are slime. Ford is still selling them the vehicle at the agreed upon price - always below invoice due to the games that go on in the back rooms with volume agreements, etc. This is worse than your local gas station tripling the price of gas after a disaster. Same scenario. I do know there could be smaller dealerships that aren't making quite the money if their sales are down, but most of the owners of these dealerships are very very wealthy men and they don't have to screw the customer, but they are protected by laws in many states that say Ford can't sell directly to you the consumer, so the dealer is sitting there just seeing how fat he can get and how much he can screw the customer.

Don't forget they used to mark thousands off an MSRP to sell and they still made money. Now they are selling at MSRP so they are easily pocketing a few thousand more just at MSRP and then going for the kill with another $5K to $10K over MSRP. We can only hope as the laws weaken and the stronger direct to market sales ramp up that they get hit where it counts.

I know it is a double edged sword, competitive dealers can protect you from a manufacture that holds all the cards, however right now we are seeing the dealers and Ford line their pockets extra off the working mans back.
 

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Just saw this tonight. First time I've seen a dealership listing an F-150 Lightning for sale with a VIN and Stock #.


There's no pics, and no real info except "Call". I imagine they will add lots of extra $$$$ to this one and try to get some sucker to buy it.
I've read two different places that each dealer is being built one truck and they have to buy it, but it is for demo and learning purposes. I thought it was also noted they couldn't sell the truck, at least for now. Could this dealer be one of the first to get their "Demo" unit? Maybe what I've read is all wrong too. I'll look for the articles to post a reference.

It is my understanding these are the first trucks off the line that wouldn't be worthy of selling as they fine tune the factory line.
 
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I certainly hope they are scheduling builds and issuing VIN’s. Since this is basically a modified F-150 I’d expect the ramp up on production to be much faster and smoother than the Bronco launch has been (especially hard tops). Maybe the Frunk and it’s components will be the constraint, who knows. As expected on this one:

View attachment 1104
Add you’ll see in another thread, Ford has not yet identified when scheduling will begin.
 
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These dealers are slime. Ford is still selling them the vehicle at the agreed upon price - always below invoice due to the games that go on in the back rooms with volume agreements, etc. This is worse than your local gas station tripling the price of gas after a disaster. Same scenario. I do know there could be smaller dealerships that aren't making quite the money if their sales are down, but most of the owners of these dealerships are very very wealthy men and they don't have to screw the customer, but they are protected by laws in many states that say Ford can't sell directly to you the consumer, so the dealer is sitting there just seeing how fat he can get and how much he can screw the customer.

Don't forget they used to mark thousands off an MSRP to sell and they still made money. Now they are selling at MSRP so they are easily pocketing a few thousand more just at MSRP and then going for the kill with another $5K to $10K over MSRP. We can only hope as the laws weaken and the stronger direct to market sales ramp up that they get hit where it counts.

I know it is a double edged sword, competitive dealers can protect you from a manufacture that holds all the cards, however right now we are seeing the dealers and Ford line their pockets extra off the working mans back.
In a normal market I would agree that dealers charging ADM are slime, but this is not a normal market. I worked as a consultant to the dealership industry for 14 years, I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of how it works. You are correct I never met a poor dealership owner, most of them are very good people who are in it for a profit, but a large percentage of dealerships in the country today are owned by a corporation (AutoNation, Penske, Sonic, Asbury, Berkshire Hathaway Automotive, Hendrick, etc). The issue today is that the lack of inventory makes it difficult or impossible for the numbers to work.

For a large store with a significant overhead and large staff (60-150 employees) there are large fixed costs. In an average market their plan may be to sell 200 new and 200 used cars per month to make X% profit. When they are selling in the neighborhood of 10% of their goal there is no way they are turning a profit. Ford and other manufacturers are probably making concessions behind the scenes to help dealers out, but they too have shareholders to answer to. Selling 400 cars per month with an average gross profit of $3500 per car means $1.4 million per month in gross, probably $100K net profit from the sales department monthly. Increase the gross profit to account for a $10K ADM on 40 cars and the gross drops to $540K, putting the dealership solidly in the hole.

Short term disruptions are one thing, but we’re approaching year 2 of the supply chain disruptions making it impossible to meet their plan. There are some signs of this pain effecting even the larger groups, an example is Larry H Miller selling their 70+ dealerships to Asbury In September 2021. LHM was privately held, according to a buddy who is a manager in one of their locations they were bleeding out in this market. They had very generous programs and benefits for their employees (like paying $10K per year towards college for 4+ year employees) that are gone now. In a good market a productive dealership can be worth $50+ million, in bad times I’ve seen dealerships sell for as little as $2 million including the real estate. I have seen plenty of new dealerships built over the years, a large Ford dealership costs $25 million to build.

A small store like the one I ordered my first wave Lightning from has low overhead and a plan to sell maybe 20 cars per month in normal times. They are still able to sell 15-20 cars per month now, so they are doing ok.
 

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In a normal market I would agree that dealers charging ADM are slime, but this is not a normal market. I worked as a consultant to the dealership industry for 14 years, I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of how it works. You are correct I never met a poor dealership owner, most of them are very good people who are in it for a profit, but a large percentage of dealerships in the country today are owned by a corporation (AutoNation, Penske, Sonic, Asbury, Berkshire Hathaway Automotive, Hendrick, etc). The issue today is that the lack of inventory makes it difficult or impossible for the numbers to work.

For a large store with a significant overhead and large staff (60-150 employees) there are large fixed costs. In an average market their plan may be to sell 200 new and 200 used cars per month to make X% profit. When they are selling in the neighborhood of 10% of their goal there is no way they are turning a profit. Ford and other manufacturers are probably making concessions behind the scenes to help dealers out, but they too have shareholders to answer to. Selling 400 cars per month with an average gross profit of $3500 per car means $1.4 million per month in gross, probably $100K net profit from the sales department monthly. Increase the gross profit to account for a $10K ADM on 40 cars and the gross drops to $540K, putting the dealership solidly in the hole.

Short term disruptions are one thing, but we’re approaching year 2 of the supply chain disruptions making it impossible to meet their plan. There are some signs of this pain effecting even the larger groups, an example is Larry H Miller selling their 70+ dealerships to Asbury In September 2021. LHM was privately held, according to a buddy who is a manager in one of their locations they were bleeding out in this market. They had very generous programs and benefits for their employees (like paying $10K per year towards college for 4+ year employees) that are gone now. In a good market a productive dealership can be worth $50+ million, in bad times I’ve seen dealerships sell for as little as $2 million including the real estate. I have seen plenty of new dealerships built over the years, a large Ford dealership costs $25 million to build.

A small store like the one I ordered my first wave Lightning from has low overhead and a plan to sell maybe 20 cars per month in normal times. They are still able to sell 15-20 cars per month now, so they are doing ok.
Thanks for the other perspective, I know there is a lot of overhead for the big guys, but since many have taken millions in profits, they need to do the opposite in slim times, fund their business from their pocket for a while. While I won't dispute it at all - here is my thought, if the finances are that bad then add a little markup to all vehicles they sell. I know it is about supply and demand, but add a little mark up to those others to see what happens, your customers will walk. This isn't about selling at MSRP, this is about gouging because they can and they are protected by laws. Past time for the state laws that protect dealers to change.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for the other perspective, I know there is a lot of overhead for the big guys, but since many have taken millions in profits, they need to do the opposite in slim times, fund their business from their pocket for a while. While I won't dispute it at all - here is my thought, if the finances are that bad then add a little markup to all vehicles they sell. I know it is about supply and demand, but add a little mark up to those others to see what happens, your customers will walk. This isn't about selling at MSRP, this is about gouging because they can and they are protected by laws. Past time for the state laws that protect dealers to change.
And I'm sure these "big guys" all have lawyers/accounts/etc. that got them a bunch of Covid-relief funds to keep their businesses running (as if the super big ones needed it).

If they weren't making a profit before all of this, then we'd never have bought cars below MSRP in the past. This is all just an excuse for them to rake in more cash.

A local Toyota dealer has a banner up on their site that says:

"
To our valued customer,

Thank you for considering McGee Toyota of Dudley, a McGee Family Dealership. You can browse our new inventory vehicle in confidence knowing that no vehicle will be sold above MSRP. We believe that with interest rates at an all time low, trade-in values at an all time high, that this is STILL a buyer’s market. Our friendly staff will confirm availability on every new car with a personalized video prior to you visiting our store. The management team here at McGee Toyota of Dudley is aware of the times and excited to work on your behalf.

See you soon!

McGee Toyota Management
"

This is a smaller dealership, so sure, they probably have less overhead. But they are doing the right thing. If I decide to buy another truck while waiting on Ford I'd throw my business their way.
 

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Pretty much every dealership nationwide is adding ADM in the $2,500 to $10,000 range on all new vehicle stock that hits the lot. Good dealers are still selling ordered cars for MSRP or whatever discount was negotiated, bad dealerships are marking up people’s special ordered Broncos by $10-$30K when the truck arrives. I bought my ordered Bronco last month for MSRP, but they are adding $15K onto abandoned orders and selling every truck they receive. My folks bought a 2022 Highlander last month, I was able to negotiate off the $5K ADM. I can’t really blame the dealership for adding something when they only have 4 new cars on a lot that would usually have 300+ for sale. Simple rules of supply and demand suggest that when demand is high and supply is scarce prices go up, many people are willing to pay. Things will normalize when supply matches demand, probably sometime in 2023.
I paid MSRP for mine.
 

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A key out of that first post is the VIN is listed in the dealer ad - copied here -
  • 1FTVW1EL1NWG00754
I've got to go find a VIN decoder. Should be a new code in there for the factory and likely motor/drivetrain being EV. This will help in the future as we start to get VIN's assigned and trucks built.

EDIT - looking legit - however position 8 engine model of L is not defined, but position10, N is model year 2022 and position 11, W is Plant Rogue Electric.

I used this decoder - https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/dam/aem_fleet/en_us/fleet/vin-guides/2022_VIN_Guide.pdf
 

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A key out of that first post is the VIN is listed in the dealer ad - copied here -
  • 1FTVW1EL1NWG00754
I've got to go find a VIN decoder. Should be a new code in there for the factory and likely motor/drivetrain being EV. This will help in the future as we start to get VIN's assigned and trucks built.

EDIT - looking legit - however position 8 engine model of L is not defined, but position10, N is model year 2022 and position 11, W is Plant Rogue Electric.

I used this decoder - https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/dam/aem_fleet/en_us/fleet/vin-guides/2022_VIN_Guide.pdf
engine code L is listed as dual electric motor, standard range battery in the decoder you linked.
 

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Thanks, skipped right over that part. I was using the tables on the bottom half of the chart until I got to model year and had to go back to the top. I missed there were engine codes up there.
 
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So hoping to see an engine code V pop up somewhere and then get that truck on the road for some testing.
 
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Just saw this tonight. First time I've seen a dealership listing an F-150 Lightning for sale with a VIN and Stock #.


There's no pics, and no real info except "Call". I imagine they will add lots of extra $$$$ to this one and try to get some sucker to buy it.
This is what they call a manikin. When I was searching for a Mach-E I would see this all the time. They post the cars as if if they’re available whether they are or not. In this case, like others have mentioned, is probably the dealers vehicle. Ford dealers can also do this with cars the customers have pre-ordered. It’s maddening. Do you think you found a car you want to buy but it’s a customers or the dealers.
 

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I went to my dealer yesterday to change the color on my order. I asked about their "demo" unit. I think this is what others have noted, those trucks are some of the first off the line as they make changes before building for the customer, so in reality I wouldn't think these trucks would be sellable. However he went on to note they were required to keep the truck for 6 months and then could sell it. So not sure I'd want to buy that truck down the road - the number of test drives and knowing it was literally one of the very first off the line.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
This is what they call a manikin. When I was searching for a Mach-E I would see this all the time. They post the cars as if if they’re available whether they are or not. In this case, like others have mentioned, is probably the dealers vehicle. Ford dealers can also do this with cars the customers have pre-ordered. It’s maddening. Do you think you found a car you want to buy but it’s a customers or the dealers.
I went to my dealer yesterday to change the color on my order. I asked about their "demo" unit. I think this is what others have noted, those trucks are some of the first off the line as they make changes before building for the customer, so in reality I wouldn't think these trucks would be sellable. However he went on to note they were required to keep the truck for 6 months and then could sell it. So not sure I'd want to buy that truck down the road - the number of test drives and knowing it was literally one of the very first off the line.
It's funny you mention this. The other night on the way home we stopped at the local Ford dealer, where I have my F-150 Lightning reservation, just to see if they had any Broncos or other new trucks on the lot. We saw one Bronco inside, actually in their side 4-bay garage area next to the showroom. Sometimes the vehicles there are sold, sometimes they just put them there to get them out of the weather.

So, my wife, son and I go inside and check out the Bronco. There's a sales guy one car over showing a family another vehicle. I don't see a sold sign, so I open the door to check out the inside. A minute after looking a younger guy comes out and asks if he can help us. I say no, thanks, just looking. He the proceeds to tell me "Is that your Bronco? Did you buy it?". When I say no he says "Well, you shouldn't be touching it then. That's sold. We don't want you breaking a $70K truck."

Really?!?! This is how you talk to customers? I thought my wife was gonna tear into him. lol

He goes on to say, "This was our mannequin, our dealer vehicle, that we had to keep for 6 months before we could sell it. And someone just bought it." For all the reasons mentioned above all I could think about that person was "FOOL!".

I may stop there again in a few minutes, ask about my reservation (again -- they aren't very forthcoming), and if it goes poorly give them a piece of my mind about their customer service,
 
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