CleanTechnica: GM Switching To Cylindrical Battery Cells.
GM making the move to 4680 batts?
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
It would appear GM is following Rivian & BMW to the "Tesla" format. Ford cannot pull up stakes & move to the 4680 soon enough. Spending too much time messing with 1990s battery tech is going to stall the excellent momentum they have with this Lightning.
You know the Fan Boys are going to string you up. It's not like they didn't have 10 good years of history to copy. Getting out of these trucks is going to be a very fine line in 18 to 24 months.
Yeah, well, I can take the heat.
I have a dream... a drop-in 4680 pack for the Lightning. Make a really good thing out of what is starting out... less so lol.
As for "getting out", I would aim for the 6 year mark. If you have not gotten a new pack by then, you can sell a truck with 2 years left on the battery warranty. What ICE truck can compare with that? Awesome really.
It will be interesting to see what the repair percentage is on these packs in 2, 4 and 6 years. Tesla has their proof already in the pudding. I've read of a few replaced packs, but they are few and far between for Tesla. They simply drop in a new pack. None of this breaking it down in the field to replace modules. I've had two Model 3's one still in the garage. Tesla has it nailed. Those packs have many many years. They have some degradation in the first year and the BMS can play a few tricks on you based solely on the way you drive it, but after that first year - there is almost no movement in the capacity of the battery.Yeah, well, I can take the heat.
I have a dream... a drop-in 4680 pack for the Lightning. Make a really good thing out of what is starting out... less so lol.
As for "getting out", I would aim for the 6 year mark. If you have not gotten a new pack by then, you can sell a truck with 2 years left on the battery warranty. What ICE truck can compare with that? Awesome really.
I was not aware that Tesla invented cylindrical batteries I seem to remember using them in my Game Boy in the 1990s.
Also, Panasonic supplies the 4680 cells to Tesla so it would be more accurate to say that GM may be adopting Panasonic batteries for their BEVs.
Also, Panasonic supplies the 4680 cells to Tesla so it would be more accurate to say that GM may be adopting Panasonic batteries for their BEVs.
If you are particularly adverse to Tesla, or to something that Elon said, you could certainly say that. I would say that's probably not as accurate, here's why;
No, Tesla obviously did not invent the cylindrical battery. What they did was to take them out of laptop batteries and pioneer modifying them for EVs. They pioneered the build of the pack, and were directly involved in the development of the first EV specific cylindrical battery; the 4680.
Panasonic is not the only manufacturer of cylindrical batteries, so if I had titled the post "GM to make the move to Panasonic batteries", that would not have been quite accurate, right?
Tesla pioneered the architecture, and I don't believe there's anybody in the industry that is unaware of what a Tesla style pack entails. I am sure that something new and wonderful will replace Tesla cylindrical packs, but at the moment they are the industry standard for ruggedness, longevity, and performance.
These are all things I think are of benefit when owning an EV.
🙂
Then your title should have been "GM to make the move to cylindrical batteries." It would have been less clickbaity an more accurate.
Tesla is doing innovative things with battery pack thermal management and battery management systems, but cylindrical lithium batteries are not that novel. My roomba has used cylindrical lithium batteries for years. Their main advantage is that they are cheaper to produce than pouch cells, but are less useful when space is at a premium which is why you see pouch batteries in modern laptops and cell phones.
Well, agree to disagree. Tesla and Tesla engineers were the main driving force behind designing the 4680 cell. The 4680 is groundbreaking for a number of reasons, and it happened because of Tesla, in full partnership with Panasonic.
Ford did not invent the automobile, nor did they produce the first one. Ford did revolutionize the production process, and they should probably be given credit for that.
Is there a specific reason that you do not believe Tesla deserves similar credit?
Does the fact that the Dodge Brothers designed Ford's first mass produced car diminish it as a Ford?
And finally, isn't this argument just a little bit silly?
2023 Lightning Lariat ER, 2018 Tesla S, 2018 Tesla 3, 2011 Nissan Leaf
Joined
·
22 Posts
LOL. Not a Tesla fanboy (no, really
), but this is pretty much a given for all things EV. We would all still be dreaming of owning an EV if not for them.Replacing the whole battery is fine if it's a warranty repair and Tesla is paying, but if you're paying the bill, replacing only a bad module is enormously less expensive. I own a Tesla. It's not built with repairs in mind. What looked like minor accident damage after somebody hit our parked car cost an obscene amount to repair. Part of that was that the damage was worse than it looked, but Teslas are also just very expensive to repair. Thank god for insurance.
2021 Mustang Mach E First Edition, 2016 Nissan Leaf, 2003 Toyota Tacoma, F-150 Lightning Lariat ER
Joined
·
3,784 Posts
If you read the original article, you will find this is all speculation. "It is highly like that General Motors will choose 4680 batteries, a specification used by Tesla."
www.thelec.net
General Motors considering using cylinder batteries over pouch for EVs
General Motors was considering using cylinder batteries over pouch batteries in its electric vehicles (EV), TheElec has learned.The US automobile giant had previously used pouch batteries from EV battery supplier LG Energy Solution for its models.Sources said this choice by General Motors’ has cause
www.thelec.net
2021 Mustang Mach E First Edition, 2016 Nissan Leaf, 2003 Toyota Tacoma, F-150 Lightning Lariat ER
Joined
·
3,784 Posts
Here’s a bit more of the story:
GM CEO: Flexible on battery cells in EV ramp
BENGT HALVORSON
FEBRUARY 1, 2023
GM has built a strong argument around the idea that one specific battery cell format, co-developed with LG, is a key for the company realizing certain economies of scale as it ramps up EV production.
But recent reports have suggested that GM is shopping around, and may be considering a shift to cylindrical cells for some upcoming vehicles. And while remarks this week from the company’s top executive didn’t confirm that, they suggested that the company may no longer be as focused on that singular solution as it was two years ago, when it revealed its Ultium propulsion strategy for scaling up EVs.
In a conference call with financial analysts held Tuesday, GM CEO Mary Barra confirmed that yes, the company is looking at other formats—as it has all along.
General Motors' BEV3 platform and Ultium batteries
“One of the strong points of the Ultium platform is that it’s chemistry-agnostic and it can take pouch, prismatic, or cylindrical cells,” Barra said. “And so we can look to what is going to be the right battery for the specific vehicle from a performance perspective, so we have that complete flexibility.”
Barra called the report of a commitment to cylindrical cells “speculation.” But she did comment a bit more on the idea at several points.
“Our team has been working and looking at all three cell form factors for a while,” Barra added, in response to another follow-up question on the cells. She pointed to how GM is currently installing prismatic cells into several Ultium-based vehicles as built in China—the Cadillac Lyriq and at least one Buick model."
One to rule them all
In the U.S., GM has emphasized that its single large-format pouch cell can be configured horizontally or vertically into modules, allowing single- or double-layer packs suitable for carrying six to 24 modules. That could underpin everything from mid-size cars and sports cars, or crossovers like the $30,000 Chevrolet Equinox EV, on up to gigantic trucks like the GMC Hummer EV and upcoming Chevy Silverado EV.
There are some real packaging drawbacks, though. Its cell format—a larger pouch cell than any other automaker is using—has created some particularly tall pack form factors, though. A shift to cylindrical cells might help lower their profile for passenger vehicles and make the vehicles easier to design for peak aerodynamics and driving range.
What about economies of scale?
Financial analysts in GM’s quarterly call didn’t take the question to the next step—by pressing Barra, perhaps, on how such a decision might affect the cost of the cells or the horizon for getting to economies of scale, which the company hasn’t shied away from talking about in the past. GM had said a couple years ago that the Ultium strategy’s large-format NCMA pouch cell—co-developed between GM and LG—was “priceless” because it allowed the automaker to keep driving down cost with economies of scale on the way to parity with combustion vehicles later this decade.
The company has also teased that it’s been running durability testing on its “next-gen Ultium” cells that might be phased in for the later part of the decade—potentially subbed in easily with the flexibility of the platform. Those might further aid affordability while giving the company the choice to prioritize cost or a 600-mile range.
In Tuesday’s call, Barra called LG Energy Solution “an incredibly important partner” to GM, and reported that the companies are working well together on the launches of plants in the Lordstown, Ohio, one in Spring Hill, Tennessee, this summer, and one in Lansing, Michigan, to follow in 2024.
“And we are going to need a fourth plant and more plants beyond that…right now, there's nothing that's really changed in our plan to have battery manufacturing capability here in the U.S. and broadly, in North America as well,” Barra said.
GM may be playing wait-and-see with that fourth plant for several potential reasons. Each of three upcoming battery plants aims for 37 to 40 gigawatt-hours annually. Once ramped up, they would provide enough capacity for well over a million EVs a year.
For whatever reason, Barra didn’t reiterate that the fourth battery plant would produce the same cell format that it’s said is key for economies of scale.
Whether this means the fourth plant might build cells in a different—perhaps cylindrical—format, or whether GM is merely delaying the decision depending on the uneasy implementation of the EV tax credit and its domestic sourcing rules, it seems the automaker is keeping its options open.
GM CEO: Flexible on battery cells in EV ramp
BENGT HALVORSON
FEBRUARY 1, 2023
GM has built a strong argument around the idea that one specific battery cell format, co-developed with LG, is a key for the company realizing certain economies of scale as it ramps up EV production.
But recent reports have suggested that GM is shopping around, and may be considering a shift to cylindrical cells for some upcoming vehicles. And while remarks this week from the company’s top executive didn’t confirm that, they suggested that the company may no longer be as focused on that singular solution as it was two years ago, when it revealed its Ultium propulsion strategy for scaling up EVs.
In a conference call with financial analysts held Tuesday, GM CEO Mary Barra confirmed that yes, the company is looking at other formats—as it has all along.
General Motors' BEV3 platform and Ultium batteries
“One of the strong points of the Ultium platform is that it’s chemistry-agnostic and it can take pouch, prismatic, or cylindrical cells,” Barra said. “And so we can look to what is going to be the right battery for the specific vehicle from a performance perspective, so we have that complete flexibility.”
Barra called the report of a commitment to cylindrical cells “speculation.” But she did comment a bit more on the idea at several points.
“Our team has been working and looking at all three cell form factors for a while,” Barra added, in response to another follow-up question on the cells. She pointed to how GM is currently installing prismatic cells into several Ultium-based vehicles as built in China—the Cadillac Lyriq and at least one Buick model."
One to rule them all
In the U.S., GM has emphasized that its single large-format pouch cell can be configured horizontally or vertically into modules, allowing single- or double-layer packs suitable for carrying six to 24 modules. That could underpin everything from mid-size cars and sports cars, or crossovers like the $30,000 Chevrolet Equinox EV, on up to gigantic trucks like the GMC Hummer EV and upcoming Chevy Silverado EV.
There are some real packaging drawbacks, though. Its cell format—a larger pouch cell than any other automaker is using—has created some particularly tall pack form factors, though. A shift to cylindrical cells might help lower their profile for passenger vehicles and make the vehicles easier to design for peak aerodynamics and driving range.
What about economies of scale?
Financial analysts in GM’s quarterly call didn’t take the question to the next step—by pressing Barra, perhaps, on how such a decision might affect the cost of the cells or the horizon for getting to economies of scale, which the company hasn’t shied away from talking about in the past. GM had said a couple years ago that the Ultium strategy’s large-format NCMA pouch cell—co-developed between GM and LG—was “priceless” because it allowed the automaker to keep driving down cost with economies of scale on the way to parity with combustion vehicles later this decade.
The company has also teased that it’s been running durability testing on its “next-gen Ultium” cells that might be phased in for the later part of the decade—potentially subbed in easily with the flexibility of the platform. Those might further aid affordability while giving the company the choice to prioritize cost or a 600-mile range.
In Tuesday’s call, Barra called LG Energy Solution “an incredibly important partner” to GM, and reported that the companies are working well together on the launches of plants in the Lordstown, Ohio, one in Spring Hill, Tennessee, this summer, and one in Lansing, Michigan, to follow in 2024.
“And we are going to need a fourth plant and more plants beyond that…right now, there's nothing that's really changed in our plan to have battery manufacturing capability here in the U.S. and broadly, in North America as well,” Barra said.
GM may be playing wait-and-see with that fourth plant for several potential reasons. Each of three upcoming battery plants aims for 37 to 40 gigawatt-hours annually. Once ramped up, they would provide enough capacity for well over a million EVs a year.
For whatever reason, Barra didn’t reiterate that the fourth battery plant would produce the same cell format that it’s said is key for economies of scale.
Whether this means the fourth plant might build cells in a different—perhaps cylindrical—format, or whether GM is merely delaying the decision depending on the uneasy implementation of the EV tax credit and its domestic sourcing rules, it seems the automaker is keeping its options open.
Joined
·
381 Posts
That is correct! Long term repairs are important.
Your experience with Tesla repairs is also true - several insurance companies have stopped insuring Teslas because even minor accident can lead to total loss.
This is new, what insurance company has stopped insuring Tesla's?
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
