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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm concerned at what Ford has done by limiting the DCFC to 150kW. EA stations are 250kw. I know the curve of the charging cycle and they don't stay at the high end very long. However the extended range battery at 131 kW could really benefit from that 250kW for several minutes.

The 150kW time from 15% to 80% is estimated at 41 minutes at the max 150kW charger. I believe this is a big oversight not allowing up to 250kW charging.

I know that the vast majority of us will do most of our charging at home in the garage, but when you do want to hit the road, you don't want to spend your time sitting at the chargers.

Tesla just announced today that their v3 250kW chargers can be bumped to 325kW or more and v4 of the SC could be on its way soon. The truck limited to 150kW seems like one of the bigger oversights they have.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Battery longevity likely played a role in their decision…250 is very fast, the amount of wear it will put in the batteries is just insane…
Tesla is proving it really isn't that bad - and this battery at 131 kW is 50 kW bigger than most of the model 3's. They can absolutely go above the 150 for some of that cycle to reduce the charge time likely by another 10 to 15 minutes. This concerns me that maybe they don't have enough cooling to take care of the battery.

This really hurts as part of making travel work in the truck. Most people don't charge at DCFC if they don't need it. The majority is at home.
 

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While it depends on the actual, delivered charging curve, I agree that 150 kW DCFC is concerning/too low for Lightning’s large battery. However, Electrify America high-power chargers are 350 kW right now. They are fairly widely distributed. The 150 kW cabinets are the standard unit; 350 kW units are at many locations.
 

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2021 Mustang Mach E First Edition, 2016 Nissan Leaf, 2003 Toyota Tacoma, F-150 Lightning reserved
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I'm concerned at what Ford has done by limiting the DCFC to 150kW. EA stations are 250kw. I know the curve of the charging cycle and they don't stay at the high end very long. However the extended range battery at 131 kW could really benefit from that 250kW for several minutes.

The 150kW time from 15% to 80% is estimated at 41 minutes at the max 150kW charger. I believe this is a big oversight not allowing up to 250kW charging.

I know that the vast majority of us will do most of our charging at home in the garage, but when you do want to hit the road, you don't want to spend your time sitting at the chargers.

Tesla just announced today that their v3 250kW chargers can be bumped to 325kW or more and v4 of the SC could be on its way soon. The truck limited to 150kW seems like one of the bigger oversights they have.
Having charged at a large number of EA stations, I have seen 50kW CHAdeMO, 150kW CCS and 350kW CCS. I have never seen a 250kW EA charger.

When you say "I know the curve of the charging cycle and they don't stay at the high end very long", are you saying you know the charging curve of the Lightning? Much of the control over charging is the power requested by the vehicle, not something innate within the charger. In an interview a few months ago with Inside EVs, Darren Palmer indicated the charging curve of the Lightning is likely to be much flatter than that of the Mustang Mach E.
 

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Having charged at a large number of EA stations, I have seen 50kW CHAdeMO, 150kW CCS and 350kW CCS. I have never seen a 250kW EA charger.

When you say "I know the curve of the charging cycle and they don't stay at the high end very long", are you saying you know the charging curve of the Lightning? Much of the control over charging is the power requested by the vehicle, not something innate within the charger. In an interview a few months ago with Inside EVs, Darren Palmer indicated the charging curve of the Lightning is likely to be much flatter than that of the Mustang Mach E.
I believe they flattened the curve of the Mach-E. Hopefully the Lightning will maintain the 150kW for a while. Otherwise this is way behind what every other EV that costs 80k is doing.
 

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I watched a charging video on the Rivian and they advertise 250kw peak charging, but during his test it never reached above 151kw and he was charging in the ideal range 20% to 80%. During his test with the 135kwh battery (I think that was the exact size on that Rivian) it took him 41 minutes to charge from 20% to 80%. Very similar to how long FORD is advertising for similar charge amounts on the lightning using 150kw charging stations. The station in the video was also able to go up to at least 250kw but never got there. If I can find the video I’ll post the link. Again an example of other companies “over promising” and under delivering.
 

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I believe they flattened the curve of the Mach-E. Hopefully the Lightning will maintain the 150kW for a while. Otherwise this is way behind what every other EV that costs 80k is doing.
What are you basing this on? I have the latest updates including 21P22 on my Mach E. I just returned from a MD to FL trip and didn't see a substantial flattening of the curve. The only change I am aware of is the increased charging rate at >80% SOC.

As I indicated above, if you are concerned about the Lightning's charging curve, I encourage you to listen to Darren Palmer's interview:

Additionally, simple math will demonstrate that charging has to remain high for a longer period for the truck to charge in 44 minutes for the SR and 41 minutes for the ER battery when using a 150kW charger.
 

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I watched a charging video on the Rivian and they advertise 250kw peak charging, but during his test it never reached above 151kw and he was charging in the ideal range 20% to 80%. During his test with the 135kwh battery (I think that was the exact size on that Rivian) it took him 41 minutes to charge from 20% to 80%. Very similar to how long FORD is advertising for similar charge amounts on the lightning using 150kw charging stations. The station in the video was also able to go up to at least 250kw but never got there. If I can find the video I’ll post the link. Again an example of other companies “over promising” and under delivering.
Here is the link to the video I am referencing about the Rivian charging.

 

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Here is the link to the video I am referencing about the Rivian charging.

I suspect the Lightning charging curve will look rather similar to that of the Rivian. Here's the charging curve pulled from that video:
Rectangle Slope Plot Font Parallel


Also, Ford's new software on the Mustang Mach E is drawing up to around 45kW above 80%.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Having charged at a large number of EA stations, I have seen 50kW CHAdeMO, 150kW CCS and 350kW CCS. I have never seen a 250kW EA charger.

When you say "I know the curve of the charging cycle and they don't stay at the high end very long", are you saying you know the charging curve of the Lightning? Much of the control over charging is the power requested by the vehicle, not something innate within the charger. In an interview a few months ago with Inside EVs, Darren Palmer indicated the charging curve of the Lightning is likely to be much flatter than that of the Mustang Mach E.
Thanks for the clarification I was thinking of Tesla v3 on the 250kW as that is their speed.

I don't know the curve of the Lightning charging, but we know a lot about Lithium batteries that many researchers have published and we know Tesla's curves, we also know some about the Mach E curves (which I've not researched) but we know that for most it tapers, but also with bigger batteries there is more room for faster charging.

My point with the thread, is that unless it is the makeup of the battery or the cooling capacity of the battery or other constraints it does not make sense to limit the DCFC to 150 kW. There has to be a good part of this battery that should be able to take advantage of faster charging that the 150 kW. Maybe it isn't much - maybe only 25% of it, but with road tripping and reducing the charging time being one of the keys to adoption the 150kW limit just doesn't seem right or good.

I will note I don't know if this is a SW limit imposed for now and maybe it can be raised via SW as they learn more about the battery and millions of charges, or if it is a HW limit that can never be altered.
 
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