[ChasingCoral]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545129196393046017

 

[Leaf to Lightning : )]

after driving a Model 3 Long-range from GA to TEXAS, I can tell you that this is certainly more possible than you think, and more likely to happen if Tesla continues to use the same 'auto-driving' feature that I experienced. The system is nice, as long as YOU maintain control and STAY AWARE when it comes to interstate EXITS, like this rest stop exit. The system may not 'understand' that the exit is not the main road, and may decide to exit FOR YOU! At 70-80 mph, with only a moment of lack of attention, it can happen. When you are then caught off guard by it, it may be too late to realize what just happened - a parked semi in a rest stop is the perfect storm.
This photo looks like the car NEVER stopped, or even applied it's brakes.

(Arial Photos)
I75 southbound lanes on left of picture... the right lane 'SPLITS' ...(this is where the technology sometimes doesn't 'know' which lane to stay in, and may prefer the right lane)

the Right lane then becomes the 'Rest Stop' exit lane...(now the car is 'set' into this lane, and has no choice but to remain there...)

the Rest Stop exit comes right into the parking area for Trucks...(the car may not understand that this is now an 'exit', and remains at set speed)

 

[2023 lighting]

Scary stuff. Goes to show driver must pay attention all the time. The exits are now getting those dotted lines where there used to be no line before. That should have helped and i wonder if this crash location had them.
Second, this looks like a case of camera or image processing failure on the tesla. Reason cameras are great but better with both camera and lidar. Lidar should have picked up on a fixed object in path with much less computer processing and delay.
Last, just like crash testing for airbags, rollover etc. Cars with driver assist should be tested at speed for fixed object detection and avoidance.

 

[Leaf to Lightning : )]

I found that the Tesla system 'preferred' to default to the right stripe/side if it could not decide what to do - which seems backwards to common sense - as when you are on an interstate, the LEFT stripe should be the default if the right strip starts to move away from it, such as with this scenario. With Left exits almost non-existent on most any interstate, it seems the safe route to take.
I had several instances of my own where this exact scenario played out. The right stripe would start to move farther right, such as for an approaching exit, and the car would 'hesitate' at some point, deciding what to do, then suddenly 'jerk' right to stay close to the right stripe, which was an exit. Not good.

 

[Ron]

Call it whatever you want, Outo pilot , Outo drive, the fact of the matter is that just like airplanes equipped with out pilot the Pilot is still have to monitor the instruments and be ready to take over right away if something is not right. Not watching a movie or play video games.

 

[VTbuckeye]

No visible skid marks. At least it wasn't painful very long 😞. That picture reminds me of pictures before the newest under ride guards on the back of the trailers were mandated. Still, a model 3 is very low and may just fit under much of it before there is enough structure to stop the car before the a and b pillars do the job. Automation or inattention...I don't think that anyone conscious of their surroundings is going to hit a trailer like that (no skid marks/ no rubber on the pavement). And if someone has a death wish (not what I am suggesting at all here) bridge abutments/trees at 90+mph are more common and just as sure a thing as the back of a trailer.

 

[sameye4m]

I can’t tell from these incidents if the car jerked out of the road towards the parked vehicle. If it just beamed towards the fixed object, the driver should have had plenty of opportunity to correct. I haven’t had a “close” incident for 5 years of using auto-steer. I use it for assistance, not to take over driving for me. I don’t think auto-pilot is advertised as it can take over driving for you either. In both cases they tell you, you need to pay attention to the road, keep your hands on the wheel, and be ready to take over at any given moment

 

[FM_Jack]

As I was driving today in the Mach E with BlueCruise on I noticed that there is a threshold around 80-81 mph in which it shuts off. I thought at first it was having an issue or something. But it made me think of these previous issues Tesla has had. I can't imagine the 66 year old was going that fast but for those that have/had Teslas - does autopilot cut off after a certain speed?

Some reviewers do comparisons between these differing systems but honestly to me, the difference is the mindset of those developing it. Blue Cruise cuts off when you hit the turn signal - should it? Ford's system is not as clean because depending on the curve or when it is adjusting itself, you look like you are drunk driving as it slightly ping pongs. So I assume that'd look worse at higher speeds.

Also as a comment to this incident, the driver staying aware? I wouldn't say 66 is really old but a persons reaction time declines as you age. They could have been aware and maybe didn't expect the system to go that way? We'll never know. The juggle between regulation and letting the private sector bear responsibility goes on.

 

[sameye4m]

As I was driving today in the Mach E with BlueCruise on I noticed that there is a threshold around 80-81 mph in which it shuts off. I thought at first it was having an issue or something. But it made me think of these previous issues Tesla has had. I can't imagine the 66 year old was going that fast but for those that have/had Teslas - does autopilot cut off after a certain speed?

Some reviewers do comparisons between these differing systems but honestly to me, the difference is the mindset of those developing it. Blue Cruise cuts off when you hit the turn signal - should it? Ford's system is not as clean because depending on the curve or when it is adjusting itself, you look like you are drunk driving as it slightly ping pongs. So I assume that'd look worse at higher speeds.

Also as a comment to this incident, the driver staying aware? I wouldn't say 66 is really old but a persons reaction time declines as you age. They could have been aware and maybe didn't expect the system to go that way? We'll never know. The juggle between regulation and letting the private sector bear responsibility goes on.

If I’m understanding this correctly, you’re saying the car should make the right decision and they didn’t expect it to make the wrong decision. It’s a tool and you can miss use a tool and put your life in danger. I can put my life in danger by misusing a power tool from HD, let alone a car. The feature clearly says to pay attention and be ready to take over. If you were driving the car, at what point do you start slowing down when you head towards a stopped vehicle. This would only be the cars fault if it jerked you towards a fixed object at full speed

 

[FM_Jack]

If I’m understanding this correctly, you’re saying the car should make the right decision and they didn’t expect it to make the wrong decision. It’s a tool and you can miss use a tool and put your life in danger. I can put my life in danger by misusing a power tool from HD, let alone a car. The feature clearly says to pay attention and be ready to take over. If you were driving the car, at what point do you start slowing down when you head towards a stopped vehicle. This would only be the cars fault if it jerked you towards a fixed object at full speed

No, I'm noting the differences in these systems and how they behave. If your point is that the driver should always be engaged then these systems should never be a selling point and anyone playing north of 10k for Tesla Autopilot is a fool. (engaged means, hands on the wheel, foot on the pedal at all times). Hands free means not engaged.

The system is programmed and should have parameters for what it does. Those parameters are adjustable. Like I said, Blue Cruise shuts off around 81 and I believe that is because it can't keep up with curves at those speeds. Happens all the time. The system, including just ACC, cuts out if the curve is too aggressive.

I don't know what these 2 were doing while driving the vehicle. They could have been paying attention and didn't expect for it to go straight into a truck but turn with the road (I don't know). My only comment to that is reaction time slows as you get older. BUT if you are just being a tesla fanboi and giving no regard to how their system runs, that's on you, not me. My honest decision would be that these systems shouldn't exist beyond ACC and if you can't handle that; turn in your license

 

[2023 lighting]

Like @Leaf to Lightning : ) says above I've heard about the Tesla tending to the right side of the lane uncomfortably so. And trying to turn towards the center of the lane autopilot resists that steering effort. Tesla owners to what degree will autopilot allow the driver to steer while engaged before the car overpowers the driver?

 

[sameye4m]

No, I'm noting the differences in these systems and how they behave. If your point is that the driver should always be engaged then these systems should never be a selling point and anyone playing north of 10k for Tesla Autopilot is a fool. (engaged means, hands on the wheel, foot on the pedal at all times). Hands free means not engaged.

The system is programmed and should have parameters for what it does. Those parameters are adjustable. Like I said, Blue Cruise shuts off around 81 and I believe that is because it can't keep up with curves at those speeds. Happens all the time. The system, including just ACC, cuts out if the curve is too aggressive.

I don't know what these 2 were doing while driving the vehicle. They could have been paying attention and didn't expect for it to go straight into a truck but turn with the road (I don't know). My only comment to that is reaction time slows as you get older. BUT if you are just being a tesla fanboi and giving no regard to how their system runs, that's on you, not me. My honest decision would be that these systems shouldn't exist beyond ACC and if you can't handle that; turn in your license

The feature is not a advertised as “hands-free” driving, unless I missed something. It’s literally how you described “engaged,” it asks you to be engaged when using it. Me and you might not buy into it, especially when it’s not fully developed for 12k, but people choose to spend their money however they want. Those accidents are the data points the system is using to get better, I obviously wouldn’t choose to be the one running the experiment for Tesla. It’s not being a fanboi when someone points out objective facts. The system puts a disclaimer saying to stay “engaged.” To me that makes it useless, others wanna use it like “hands-free” driving.

 

[sameye4m]

Like @Leaf to Lightning : ) says above I've heard about the Tesla tending to the right side of the lane uncomfortably so. And trying to turn towards the center of the lane autopilot resists that steering effort. Tesla owners to what degree will autopilot allow the driver to steer while engaged before the car overpowers the driver?

On a tesla, the system disengages as soon as you steer “against” it. The car doesn’t fight you for control. That being said, it doesn’t disengage at high speeds or sharp turns. It will definitely put you in a dangerous situation if you let it fully take control of the drive.

 

[VTbuckeye]

I am not familiar with Tesla, but in our volvos the car will not overpower the driver. There is some resistance, but you can easily steer where you want to. Sometimes I turn off the steering assist when it starts following the wrong lines. You can feel its indecision through the steering wheel and know that it is about to do something stupid. I hope that the ford will be the same way.

 

[Leaf to Lightning : )]

the difference between the Model 3 LR and my new KIA Sorento PHEV's 'ASSIST' type hands-off-the-wheel driving system is pretty noticeable - the Tesla takes much more 'force' to steer it 'away' from where it is heading, and then it will 'jerk' the car, sometimes severely, when it then disengages - AND, you then have to 're-engage' the system. The KIA, on the other hand, is very smooth, takes LITTLE torque to take over the steering, and NEVER jerks or moves the car suddenly, it just does what you ask it to do - AND, it REMAINS engaged, but you ALWAYS have control, no matter. The Kia simply makes this type of assisted driving MUCH more comfortable, and Safe.
The LIGHTNING's 'Assist' feature works the same way, with only 'BlueCruise', with it's additional sensor equipment, allowing for 'true' hands-free driving, removing the need to constantly put your 'hands on the wheel'.

 

[Vandy1981]

after driving a Model 3 Long-range from GA to TEXAS, I can tell you that this is certainly more possible than you think, and more likely to happen if Tesla continues to use the same 'auto-driving' feature that I experienced. The system is nice, as long as YOU maintain control and STAY AWARE when it comes to interstate EXITS, like this rest stop exit. The system may not 'understand' that the exit is not the main road, and may decide to exit FOR YOU! At 70-80 mph, with only a moment of lack of attention, it can happen. When you are then caught off guard by it, it may be too late to realize what just happened - a parked semi in a rest stop is the perfect storm.
This photo looks like the car NEVER stopped, or even applied it's brakes.

(Arial Photos)
I75 southbound lanes on left of picture... the right lane 'SPLITS' ...(this is where the technology sometimes doesn't 'know' which lane to stay in, and may prefer the right lane)
View attachment 3285

the Right lane then becomes the 'Rest Stop' exit lane...(now the car is 'set' into this lane, and has no choice but to remain there...)
View attachment 3286

the Rest Stop exit comes right into the parking area for Trucks...(the car may not understand that this is now an 'exit', and remains at set speed)
View attachment 3287

Thanks for this explanation. I can see now how this could happen. It's amazing that more people weren't hurt.

I predict that NHTSA is soon going to require eye tracking sensors in all vehicles that meet an ADAS capability threshold.

 

[FM_Jack]

The feature is not a advertised as “hands-free” driving, unless I missed something. It’s literally how you described “engaged,” it asks you to be engaged when using it. Me and you might not buy into it, especially when it’s not fully developed for 12k, but people choose to spend their money however they want. Those accidents are the data points the system is using to get better, I obviously wouldn’t choose to be the one running the experiment for Tesla. It’s not being a fanboi when someone points out objective facts. The system puts a disclaimer saying to stay “engaged.” To me that makes it useless, others wanna use it like “hands-free” driving.

You are arguing with someone else, that's fine.

That being said, it doesn’t disengage at high speeds or sharp turns.

Thank you for answering the one question I cared to have answer.

the difference between the Model 3 LR and my new KIA Sorento PHEV's 'ASSIST' type hands-off-the-wheel driving system is pretty noticeable - the Tesla takes much more 'force' to steer it 'away' from where it is heading,

That's interesting....

 

[Leaf to Lightning : )]

yes, my own Mother, who took a long 230 mile ride with me in the Tesla, to see my son, and then returned in the Kia Sorento PHEV, with the same 'Assist' driving system, said that even SHE, the passenger, could feel a VERY NOTICEABLE difference in how the car 'reacted' to situations, and how it then HANDLED the steering. She was NOT impressed with the Model 3, and LOVED the Kia....amazing how it can be so different. She was scared in the Tesla, and enjoyed the Kia.

 

[ErichKeane]

yes, my own Mother, who took a long 230 mile ride with me in the Tesla, to see my son, and then returned in the Kia Sorento PHEV, with the same 'Assist' driving system, said that even SHE, the passenger, could feel a VERY NOTICEABLE difference in how the car 'reacted' to situations, and how it then HANDLED the steering. She was NOT impressed with the Model 3, and LOVED the Kia....amazing how it can be so different. She was scared in the Tesla, and enjoyed the Kia.

The Kia lane-keep-assist has a really good 'steering-strength' I've noticed, and it does a really good job keeping the lane. The only problem I have with it is when a lane 'widens' (like before it is going to split, but they haven't put the middle line on it) and it pulls towards the middle. On the highway this isn't a problem, but the road near me has a middle-double-yellowed-in lane that turns into a left-turn lane every little while. On a few of them, the tendency to move towards the middle will confuse it and move us toward the middle lane. If the Tesla is 'stronger' in its steering resistance there, I suspect I'd turn it off immediately.

 

[bmcons]

I have a 2015 Tesla Model S with the Auto Pilot with convenience features available at that time (it changes lanes when you activate the turn signal), and a 2022 Model Y Performance, without FSD. I've used the Auto Pilot in the 2015 Model S more than I've used it in the 2022 model, and I am more confident with the old version (I've only had the Model Y for a month though). That being said, I would never trust either without my fully committed attention and being ready to step in at any time. The Model S Auto Pilot has "saved" me once when I had a panic attack behind the wheel though. I engaged it as soon as something felt off with me, and it maneuvered the car safely on the highway until I started feeling ok.